Stunning. But I'm not so sure Canada would've gone along with the war anyway. It wasn't exactly popular worldwide. As for France, they might have sent troops if Bush hadn't pushed for war when he did--a move most easily explained by its proximity to the 2004 election.

Sounds like Canada and France have a lot more in common than a few million French spleakers.

the timing, eh?

after their contracts started to pay off??

And maybe they would never have had to offer troops after the 2004 election.

I can assure you that Canada wouldn't have gone along with the war, regardless of weasely Paul Martin's personal stake in an invasion-free Iraq. The average Canadian was (and remains) vehemently opposed to the war.

Also, Paul Martin wasn't Prime Minister at the time the US was trying to assemble the "Coalition of the Willing." He took office on December 12, 2003. The US invaded Iraq on March 19(ish), 2003.

There's only one condition under which Chirac would have sent troops.

The only problem is we wouldn't have been that happy having French troops fighting against us.

Face reality, he's a Gaullist who wants to defeat and humble us.

Nox is wrong:

the average canadian is not fundamentally anti-war or hostile to working with the US.

There's about a 40% group in english canada that has that position, and then a vastly isolationist and anti-american population in quebec. That brings it to bout 51% ish. And even then, it was solely because the government hammered on how they opposed the US in a granstanding attempt to gain support in quebec. Numbers were easily convertable if the PM at the time had been supportive of the US. Instead, he was a corrupt, lying, thieving, anti-american b****rd.

With a conservative government, Canada will be back to its proper place. And if Quebec separates, it will be vey Australian, if not Texan.

I checked with Pete. There's no story here. Move along.

Just how corrupt Paul Martin is. His shipping company is registered offshore, so he doesn't have to pay the high Canadian taxes, and he doesn't need to comply with Canadian labour and environmental standards.

AFAIK hey is right. The Iraq war had a higher support in the English speaking parts, but the overall numbers were low due to Quebec. Also, English Canadians did support the missile defence , but again, the countrywide numbers numbers went under 50% because of Quebec.

Vilmos

"The average Canadian was (and remains) vehemently opposed to the war."

Remains.

Remains.

Given what's been shown these past two years, and more importantly, these past four months, that speaks very clearly on the Canadian mindset.

What a sleezy culture.
Ya'all bend over a psread your cheeks!

----------------------
“Nevertheless the theory of output as a whole, which is what the
following book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions
of a totalitarian state, than is the theory of production and distribution of a given
output produced under conditions of free competition and a lance measure of laissez-faire.” -- J.M. Keynes Introduction to his "General Theory"

"The average Canadian was (and remains) vehemently opposed to the war."

Remains.

Remains.

Given what's been shown these past two years, and more importantly, these past four months, that speaks very clearly on the Canadian mindset.

What a sleezy culture.
Ya'all bend over a psread your cheeks!

----------------------
“Nevertheless the theory of output as a whole, which is what the
following book purports to provide, is much more easily adapted to the conditions
of a totalitarian state, than is the theory of production and distribution of a given
output produced under conditions of free competition and a lance measure of laissez-faire.” -- J.M. Keynes Introduction to his "General Theory"

It should be noted though that Chretien (who was Canadian PM at the time) is/was closely tied to the oil-for-food scandal. His daughter married Andre Desmaris, son of Paul Desmaris, director of the TotalFinaElf, the French oil company with lucrative contracts in Ba'athist Iraq.

True. Even if we knew about the cheating on Iraqi oil years ago (and did nothing, even though now it's terribly important). I heard about it before Blowjobgate. Remember? But now it's an issue. Which it should be. And I look forward to the participants being outed. But please don't pretend that it justifies the war.

Not finishing it in 1991 because our "good friends and historical allies," "the world" and the UN prefer "stability."

Ever notice 3 international and 1 domestic unfinished biz has been biting us in our collective posterior for the past 4-5 years?

Iran, Iraq, Korea and Nam.

Finish up, finish down, but finish it.

Is Canada now Mexico del Norte? That could explain the "nada" in "Canada."

Power corrupts, it's that simple. Power with a French twist usually constitutes a future ass-whoopin'.

frog and limey colonialism to our north

frog and spik (that should send some mouths frothing) colonialism to our south.

And they think we're messed up.

True. Even if we knew about the cheating on Iraqi oil years ago (and did nothing, even though now it's terribly important). I heard about it before Blowjobgate. Remember?

Actually, no! The intimations of corruption in the OFF were coming as soon as the program took off.

You just weren't paying attention.

Hmm. Does the hypocrisy of all these greedly little socialists highlight the superiority of capitalism or expose it supremely corrupting influence?

"100-percent-owned..."

Ah. Socialism for the rest of us...

Rob, the war was always justified by the arguments for it.

What the recent revelations regarding just how so many of the nations who opposed it were bought off reveals is that people like the Canadians were not listening to any arguments. Just reacting with rabid knee-jerk irrational America-hatred and following their corrupt leaders.

And another thing that the recent revelations reveal is what many of us always known - that the vaunted morals of people like the Canadians are so much tissue of corrupt lies.

astonishing bit of nonsense written above by folks who seem to have little grasp of international opinion. To pretend that the neighbors to the north are or were the exception when deciding to not commit to the US Iraq policy is flat out wrong. In the middle east opinion was and is almost universally oposed. In Europe polls show 70-90% opposed in every country with the possible exception of England. The outlier is is our own country. However much you may wish it otherwise, the Canadian people share most of the world's condemnation and outrage at the US Iraq policy. The thoughts of many writers whose statements like 'knee-jerk American-hatred' simply live in a fantasy that the US Iraq policy was internationaly sanctioned and that isolated disenters had ulterior motives. Pointing fingers at the world and chalking up our failure to lame excuses like that will leave this nation isolated and vulnerable.

John, putting words in my mouth to create a strawman shows your lack of integrity.

It is comical that so many people are upset with the Canadians for being anti-American when we have a major political party here in the USA that is anti-American. It doesn't look like the Democrat party got any Oil For Food money but George Soros does get what he pays for.

Would now be a good time to trot out the picture of Rummy and Hussein shaking hands?

Majority of Canadians didn't want to join your idiot war of aggression.

Martin listened to the the people. You should be so lucky.

Don't worry though, my poor misled neighbours to the south, we're still fighting with you in Afghanistan.

And considering the war so far is costing you guys $5.8 billion a month (50% of what the Pentagon projected, more incompetence from this administration), we probably couldn't afford it. Our defence budget is around $15 billion/year.

Actually we'd find a way if you knowe, were in immediate danger and such and such.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_cost_111804,00.html?ESRC=eb.nl is the Iraq war cost link.

Vince, while I appreciate the contributions of the individual Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, Canada's contribution to its own defence is a joke. If you had a fishing fleet war with Spain today, the Spanish fishing fleet would defeat Canada's entire military in a day.

Its hilarious how much people rely on a photo of Rumsfeld and Hussein and ignore the actual reality that US support for Iraq was minimal and irrelevant.

But that is the Canadian motto - minimal and irrelevant.

As for cost estimates, it could be worse - the Pentagon could have hired the RCMP people who estimated the cost of your failed national gun registration project.

Hmm... A notification of follow-up comments would be great here. Look at all this fun arguing going on.

Robin, just because people come to different conclusions than you do (in this case, most Canadians concluding that invading Iraq was a moronic, greed driven enterprise that had nothing to do with the weapons of mass destruction that Bush kept howling about) doesn't mean we didn't examine the facts and listen to the arguments. It simply means we came to a more rational conclusion, and that we disagree with you.

The reasons cited by the Bush administration for the invasion were spurious at best. There's nothing immoral about refusing to buy in to an idiotic plan that's going to exacerbate violence in the region and get a shitload of our own soldiers killed. If anything the hasty invasion was the immoral option. There's pretty clear evidence now that the Bush administration knew Iraq didn't have WMDs, nor was Iraq providing any substantive aid or support to terrorists. Even so, they shipped the soldiers over there and it wasn't long before there were significant military and Iraqi civilian body counts.

I'm not even going to try to argue that our military is underfunded and undermanned. I was engaged to a Canadian peacekeeper who had done tours in Haiti, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. I've heard stories and seen first-hand how the lack of funding hurts the troops. But it's narrow-minded of you to suggest that having a bloated military that eats up a massive portion of our annual budget is the only way a country can contribute to its defence. There are other, more subtle ways that a country can effect defence, including a rational foreign policy and the ability to operate in the diplomatic sphere. No doubt you'll pooh-pooh these as unimportant, since you seem to have a fairly unsophisticated, "I'm right, you're wrong" understanding of highly complicated issues.

Besides, the average Canadian soldier is worth about 3 US soldiers. Our equipment is junk, but our training is significantly better. That's why in any sort of skills-based competition our soldiers beat yours.

"If you had a fishing fleet war with Spain today, the Spanish fishing fleet would defeat Canada's entire military in a day."

I see. I'd like to see your comprehensive study, pulled from your ass from which you speak. But you followed up with "Its hilarious" so it's all good.

"But that is the Canadian motto - minimal and irrelevant."

And Americans wonder why they aren't always well received. Thankfully, many Canadians will disregard buffoons like yourself and resist the temptation to paint all Yankees with the same brush.

Now, as far as Rummy and Hussein shaking hands, today I saw something even better - Bush holding hands (no doubt exchanging protein strands) with the head of Saudi Arabia (remember those guys? 15/19 is what I call a majority) http://us.news3.yimg.com/beta.news.yahoo.com/util/anysize/380,http%3A%2F%2Fus.news1.yimg.com%2Fus.yimg.com%2Fp%2Frids%2F20050425%2Fi%2Fr1876771878.jpg?v=1. It's good to know Bush keep his enemies real close.

Nox, what I've seen of Canadian "examination" of the justifications of the Iraq War was uniformly superficial and sophomoric. When a country's leadership is as corrupt as Canada's, the "No Blood for Oil" posters proclaim a truly nauseating hypocrisy and ignorance.

Vince, obviously you don't recall the last Canadian-Spanish fishing fleet war.

And Vince, so far I've yet to find Canadians who do not paint "Yankees" with the same brush of Canadian ignorance. One of the many things I find hilarious about Canadians is that they are filled with anti-american propaganda and are inevitably ignorant of how their own country screws up the issues they so boldly declaim about.

I'm still chuckling that our Canadian visitor above doesn't even recall the great Turbot War from a decade ago.

Since Canada paid damages to the one Spanish fishing boat that they "captured", I still count that a Canadian loss.

Any Canadian who stoops to military comparisons between the US, quality or quantity, is obviously taking too much advantage of their lenient pot laws. ;P

There's nothing inherently superior about Americans or Canadians. Training is mostly a matter of money, technology, and facilities. The US holding vast advantages in all 3.

Cutler, since I was engaged to a military police tactical combat instructor who would have lost his badge had I been caught with any sort of illegal drugs, I can assure you that I am quite sober.

Look into it, it's a matter of record. Virtually any time the Canadian and US armies engage in any sort of combat exercise or competition we kick your ass.

Robin, I can't even recall the posters you're talking about, and I was happily protesting against the invasion both before and after it occurred, so they didn't make much of an impact. (Side note: the Marine guards you guys have outside your consulate in Toronto are pretty hot, and lots of fun to make out with.) Regardless, those posters are a result and not the actual analysis. Before the posters came the fact that there was clearly absolutely no evidence to support the ludicrous claims of the Bush administration in their attepts to justify an invasion that was outside of international law and international sanction. I appreciate that you probably think the US doesn't need any sort of international approval to stomp around the world and bully people, and that's fine. But the flip side of that is that you can't expect any international assistance or concern when the people you attack push back. Diplomacy is frustrating, and complicated, and takes intelligence and savvy. It's much easier for a simple mind like Bush to run in with guns blazing and wonder after the fact how the hell he's going to stop losing soldiers and driving up a truly awe-inspiring debt.

As for the corruption of our leaders, do you really want to get into comparisons? Really? The Bush-bin Laden oil connections? Cheney and Halliburton? Rice and Exxon? At least our leaders didn't decide to get tens of thousands of people killed to add to their already hefty bankrolls.

Oh, and hi. I'm Nox. I'm a Canadian who hates the Bush administration, I don't hate Americans. I hate some, because let's be honest, every country has it's fair share of pig-ignorant assholes and in the US yours are in charge for now. My best friend is an American living in Texas, and she hates Americans with impressive vitriol. But I now live in Calgary, Alberta (aka Texas North) and I fully recognize that the behaviour and attitudes that I despise in some Americans is alive and well up here in redneck country. Thankfully, our jackasses don't have the majority needed to put a complete douchebag in office. Well, at least not a dangerous douchebag.

"I'm still chuckling that our Canadian visitor above doesn't even recall the great Turbot War from a decade ago."

If you call that a war, you may not be too smart.

"Since Canada paid damages to the one Spanish fishing boat that they "captured", I still count that a Canadian loss."

It's been confirmed. You're not smart.

Nox, your understanding of the US case for the Iraq War is amusing only in that it confirms my point about your ignorance.

Vince, of course it wasn't a war ... to a nation with a real military. Luckily for Canada, the spanish fishing fleet felt no reason to ask for its nation's real military forces' aid or the two Canadian languages would be French and Spanish today.

Nox: "There are other, more subtle ways that a country can effect defence, including a rational foreign policy and the ability to operate in the diplomatic sphere."

You're confusing "subtle" with "impotent." Such as the case of the Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi who was tortured and murdered by Iranian officials. While denouncing the killing publicly, the Canadian Government allowed an Iranian official into Canada to be "briefed on the workings of Canada's new Advance Passenger Information database, designed to identify potential threats to civil aircraft before they board." http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/04/01/iranofficial-050401.html

Then there was Martin's infamous statement, upon being asked about the assassination of Rafik Hariri, that while there had been some "failings," "It is clear that if the Syrians are in Lebanon it is because it is necessary to keep the peace."

"Subtle" is really too kind a word.

Nox: "As for the corruption of our leaders, do you really want to get into comparisons?"

Yes, and I think Canada comes out the worse in that comparison. Paul Desmarais's Power Corp. is the largest shareholder in Total, the company to which Saddam granted the development rights to 25% of Iran's oil reserves ... and Desmarais's son is married to Chretien's daughter. What a happy coincidence for Chretien that his "principled" opposition to the Iraq war just happened to coincide with his family's financial interests!

Sorry, nothing you can come up with in the U.S. touches the incestuous nature of the Desmarais/Strong/Chretien/Martin clan, and their paws are all over the Oil for Fraud travesty.

Nox: "At least our leaders didn't decide to get tens of thousands of people killed to add to their already hefty bankrolls."

I wouldn't be too sure. Wasn't the claim widely made that UN sanctions on Iraq caused 500,000 deaths from starvation, disease, etc.? Think just of the skimming and laundering of money by BNP Paribas -- Saddam's chosen banker for the Oil for Food programme, controlled by a holding company owned by Paul Desmarais. Someday maybe Lancet will get around to counting how many Iraqis died when money intended for their food and medicine went into the pockets of Desmarais and his cronies instead.

Nox: "My best friend is an American living in Texas, and she hates Americans with impressive vitriol."

At least she's not an entire province that routinely tries to secede (unless bribed with large sums of cash).

Wow. Canada is almost as bad as some of those American companies that were screwing around with the Oil For Food program.

Who'd have thunk it?