Yes,
Mr. Cheney had the best of it tonight. He was far more articulate on the current record of the administration than Mr. Bush. I must also say that Mr. Cheney was able to slam Mr. Kerry without sounding hysterical.

Regards,
Mike

He blew out Edwards on foreign policy, but unfortunately fogoed attacking Edwards on domestic policy. He missed many opportunities to absolutey destroy him.

Still, Cheney clearly won, imo.

Vanilla cigar recommendation - Don Armando Illusions.

World Series recommendation - Cardinals.

VP Debate conclusion - it was a Cheney smackdown. Johnny can come back in 4 years and try again.

Cheney beat Edwards heads down. Edwards ambulance chasing trial laywer demeaner did not stand up to an honest, focused Cheney.
And Edward's wife is a COW!

Dick Cheney to John Edwards: "I am a man, you are a boy." Cheney wins by a healthy margin.

One word. Lightweight.

I would not use the 'cow' word. It just feeds the opposition.

Mike

No minds changed tonight! Cheney did better, but made Bush look even weaker.
I was thinking "finally, a debater who can use complete sentences!" Edwards made
Kerry look stiff and dull. But he repeated himself way too much. Reminded me of Bush,
without the struggling speaking style.

I second Mike. That was uncalled for. Cheney could have done it without being rude.

"Nobody, but nobody, combines mean and sweet like Dick Cheney."

I really expected more out of Edwards.

I really thought that I was watching a Trial lawyer info-mercial every second that John Edwards was speaking. I kept waiting for VP Cheney to start his rebuttal with "Spoken like a true Ambulance Chaser". And Edwards constant breaking the rules to stick in his little comments was ridiculous!

Oh please tell me you were watching NBC and saw wonkette compare Dick Cheney to the Sta-Puft Marshmellow Man...

Cheney won easily and actually passed on the chance to pound Edwards into scrap several times. Edwards looked flustered, got stuck on his talking points, and his attempts to play to the audience came off as phony.

And that pathetic excuse for a moderator shoud be banned from TV for life.

So what were the network polls on winners?

I saw ABC had it 43-35 for Cheney. CBS had it like 26+ for Edwards.

I can't help but think about how grumpy and mean Churchill was.

GOD LOVE THE VP

I live-blogged it. If Edwards had indicted Cheney, he could have scored a big win. As it is, I'm going to say slight advantage to Edwards. Cheney is going to scare a lot of people, especially those who've seen Star Wars or Dr. Strangelove (no, that's not meant to be inflammatory, just an accurate assessment of what many people will think). People will remember all of the facts that Edwards disputed rather than Cheney's responses, for instance, the $7 billion for Halliburton.

Clearly edwards was the winner. Cheney was on the defensive all night long. He just looked old and tired.

NBC picked Wonkette to do political commentary to make bloggers look bad. I am convinced of this.

Umm, "Cows" need loving too, and trust me, breck boys cant extend that kind of intimacy.

Cheney won because Mr. Edwards was all speaking points. I think he would have a rash if a core value came within 20 feet of him and he didnt have any cortizinc available.... IMHO

Babyarm

Edwards got wasted most of the time.

Wonkette is a moron and certainly not deserving of the title "wonkette."

I thought that Edwards came across a little boyish and inexperienced, but also was quick and well prepared for responses. I chalk some of the repetition up to inexperience, not like Bush's repetition which is due to incompentence. My Cheney did strike me as being cool and focused, didn't take all the shots he could have and passed up an opportunity for one of his final comments on a question. He did however leave the impression that the systems which are failing us are his systems and they are going to stay the course. It was also clear by Cheney's performance that he was president all along, though he poorly tried to look like he was giving Bush a nod.

Okay,

Seen Dr. Stranglove. Seen Starwars. Seen Omega man. Seen Forbiden Planet. What other movie would you car to mention? Mr. Cheney handed it to Mr. Edwards. Mr. Edwards could not defend Mr. Kerry's comments about global (or was it interplanitary) approval prior to defending the US?

Regards,
Mike

I think Lonewacko Blog is off base. Edwards should have quit while he was ahead on Halliburton, but he kept bringing it up over and over and over and over again until it sounded like he had nothing else to talk about. In fact, it seemed more like he was regurgitating talking points than anything else.

People aren't going to be talking about Halliburton tomorrow. They're going to be talking about the bitchslap Cheney administered about how tonight was the first time he'd actually met Edwards since he entered the Senate, which just about knocked the Senator out of his chair. You talk about your Bentsen moment, that was it. Edwards was able to recover somewhat when the debate moved on to domestic issues but the damage had been done.

I expect the MSM to downplay the importance of the whole debate tomorrow, and they're not altogether wrong (I imagine a lot more people were watching the baseball playoffs) but as far as I'm concerned Cheney wins, hands down. This recoups a lot of the ground Bush lost last week and if he takes a page from his VP's book starting with tomorrow's speech and carrying on into Friday, he can reestablish his dominance.

Also, here's a question. Does Cheney saying that he'd do the "same course of action" regarding Iraq mean that he would send too few troops the second time?

Does that mean the second time he'd leave the spy headquarters unguarded?

The second time, would it take days to shut down the propaganda from Iraqi TV?

Does that mean that the second time around he'd let people walk off with 1/5 of the nuclear material from al Tuwaitha?

Vanilla cigars? Are you kidding me? What are you, a metrosexual? Get coffee-infused Mayorgas, Nicaraguan blend.

Wonkette voted Cheney the winner on NBC.

MSNBC Debate panel unanimous for Cheney.

Mission accomplished by Cheney the Bulldozer.

I am so tired of hearing the infamous "We sent to few troops" line. The 4th ID was stopped from coming in from the north by our 'allies' France and Germany. That is one of the reasons that some, if not most, of the FRM are still in Iraq.

Mike

And I like Vanilla Cigars . . . .

The thing with Halliburton, yes $7 billion sounds like a lot af money, but we're actually losing money there. We're not making a profit, we're there to re-build, from scratch, an entire country. The whole of the infrastructure is just gone. That means water, electricity, etc. It really torques my pickle to hear disparaging words said about a company that is doing it's damndest to help a struggling nation regain it's feet.
Not to mention the fact that the mention of whomever won the contract isn't really an issue of presidential dabate caliber.

There is a silver platter missing from the White House china cabinet, and John Edward's ass is on it.

Regarding the charge of "we didn't send enough troops", well, the cupboard is pretty damned bare. What would have happened if we committed five divisions to Iraq, and North Korea headed south?

And Kerry's plan of "doubling special forces" is so much BS. There are only so many guys in this country that pack that gear, and only so many of them volunteer for service in those units. The only way to double their number is to reduce standards.

Seriously,

If you are depending on these debates to make up your mind regarding voting, you are well and truly a moron.

I should do an essay on this, and probably will, but I mean come on, can you actually base your vote on the formalized, highly spun rhetoric that are the debates ????

I mean, first you have to start with the moderator, wtf kind of questions were those? great, she brought Bremer's comments up, first thing...surprise.... what about our action in Samarra? What about how Turkey screwed America as far as allowing the 4th ID to disembark in thier ports?

What about Afghanistan's elections in 4 DAYS???? lol, Afghanistan voting...that statement is in and of itself worthy of a Nobel peace prize.

But of course, we cant report the human drama that is Afghanis' grasping a chance at liberty, despite all the bombings and threats and fear.....

We need to paint it as a quagmire, lest the wrong person gets elected.

Star Wars? Jar-Jar Binks comes to mind when thinking of Edwards..."See-sa breaks the rules? Isa won'ts bring up Kerry's names-es anymore. Ha ha ha!"

Give it up wacko...Edwards got schooled tonight. The fact that you're dwelling on the same talking points that Edwards was unable to effectively articluate proves that quite well.

You're not a wartime consiglieri, John.

Cheyney was more articulate and far more agile than Bush at countering most of the points Edwards tried to make. However, beyond the substantive points of the debate , I have only two words to describe Dick Cheyney, "Class Act!"

Cheney.

Bryan, Bryan, be calm. Stephen said he was off for a vanilla cigar and an espresso. I was opining on a choice, when the medium has already been identified.

As a red-meat eating, Redbird nation supporting, Cheney opened up a can of Whoop-Ass voting cigar smoker, my personal choice is Padron Annivesario (Maduro)(unfortunately, next to impossible to find), followed by Montecristo Platinum Series, followed by La Gloria Cubano Maduro (Churchill).

Metrosexual my midwestern rear.

BTW - did I see Cheney shaking hands with Leahy and enjoying a laugh after the debate? That would be one of the seven signs of the Apocalypse.

...and there are two Tim's posting. Clearly, both are intelligent, but only one has denied any metrosexual tendencies.

Cheney rocked ... he was kind and did not pummel edwards. It was a clear and decisive victory for Cheney. There was little question that edwards came prepared to sing about Kerry this and Kerry that ... it was sad that he was nothing but a Kerry voice piece

Here is yet another difference between the Kerry camp and the Bush camp. Some people in the Bush camp were willing to say he lost last Thursday. No one in the Kerry camp will admit Edwards lost tonight. I'll be surprised if one does so.

Well it wasn't the blowout that we saw last week (we can wait until Friday for that), but you guys lost again. Good to see you guys still towing the party line, though, particularly since Cheney seemed to give up about 45 minutes into it. But all the conservative websites agree, so it must be true.
You guys really oughta get out of your own echo chamber sometimes. It will make your upcoming loss on November 2nd less traumatic.

Cheney by a wide margin. I don't remember getting a straight answer from Edwards - just anything but Bush.

Oh, Edwards is for the middle class and against flickering lights.

Did anyone notice that Edwards was sweating like a pig and his face seemed unusually red. He looked like he had just climbed out of a Jimmy Buffet video shoot.

Also he kept tearing and crumbling paper up while Cheney was talking.

Cheney won easily. I thought Edwards looked very much like Bush did on Thursday...ie...shaken.

Edwards looked like I did in my 2L Trial Practice class - ie - nervous and overmatched.

Edwards needs med attention asap to staunch the rectal bleeding caused by the Cheney smackdown.

Quick Question ?

Who was the other Blogger featured on NBC ?

I also feel that Cheneys used facts to buttress his points, while Edwards focused on getting the audience to react emotionally.

I think both candidates tired. Cheney displayed this by looking tired, Edwards became more incoherent.

I guess I'm in the Kerry camp, seeing as how that's who I'm planning to vote for ;)

I thought both did reasonably well, but Cheney won it. I didn't take his body language and expressions as ominous and angry, as some are saying -- he came across to me as calm and assured, and a darned good extemporaneous speaker. Edwards came too close to making Bush's mistake of forgetting that the cameras were broadcasting his expression the whole time his opponenet was speaking. Several times you could read his face, and tell Cheney landed one. He also was too "talking points" (another problem I had with Bush's performance - although Edwards didn't do that to the same degree Bush did) and several times offered significantly less substance than I thought was needed. They both got in some good sound bites. But Cheney edged Edwards out.

CNN commentators were completely down.
And one of them answered (at the question "who won the debate"):
"Well... Euhh... you know, it's difficult... But... I think it's not unfair to say that some would call it a draw..."

It was fantastic to see that.

And all Kerry supporters were completely defeated. Like if they lost someone of their family, something like that (French journalists looked exactly the same when Saddam Hussein was arrested)

John, it was John Hinderaker from PowerLineblog.

But, really, have we learned anything from these debates? I could have predicted the outcome of both of them before they even happened and, I expect, so could all of you. Bush is an abysmal public speaker. Always has been. Has nothing to do with his qualifications to run the country, though and, Kerry "won" on style only.

Cheney, who has more gravitas (I expect you're going to be hearing that word a lot in the coming week) in his left pinky than any of the contenders, demolished Edwards. What a surprise.

Can we just get this damned thing over with? Are people really making up their minds in this election on the basis of facial expressions? To quote H. Ross, now that's just sad.

Edwards was like Gore at the beginning of his 2000 campaign, came across as patronizing and lacking sincerity. At many times his talking seemed to be geared at an audience that he thought was below him - like some low-IQ jury.

Cheney sunk his battleship.

I have often considered Kerry to be a Jimmy Carter style candidate, but Edwards doesn't even measure up to Mondale.

Cheney was definitely more persuasive. Edwards let a lot of opportunities to offer specifics. Cheney had constant facts and examples at hand, and his GEO gravitas made them seem all the more irrefutable. Edwards had a a great opportunity to refute the whole "just what is a global test?" nonsense, but didn't cut to the meat quite clearly enough.

Within the first half hour of this Vice-Presidential debate, there was ONE REACTION SHOT of Vice President Cheney. There were over TEN REACTION SHOTS (INCLUDING SPLIT SCREEN SHOTS) of Sen. John Edwards. Who the Hell has paid off these cameramen???!!! I really don't want to believe this administration is dishonest but I also don't want to be manipulated. This debate coverage did not provide an equitable playing field. Cheney was very composed and confidant throughout the entire debate, so why do they have to try and get cheap shots of Edwards pulling a Gore? Why can't the Bush-Cheney camp play it straight for once and let their record and their convictions speak for themselves? Are they really that scared they might lose?

I can't tell you how much I wish Jon Stewart and the Daily Show were handling the coverage of this debate, because despite the fact that they dub themselves a "fake news" program, at least with them, we could have been assured of fair and balanced coverage. Both camps would have equally skewered.

I'm ashamed of the pathetic state of our media and journalistic outlets today. It's beyond depressing. Let the American people hear the facts and decide for themselves who they want to lead this country. If you have to cheat to win, then you don't deserve to be at the helm.

Jackie Brown
A Concerned Citizen (and until recently, a swing voter)

P.S. Thank God for the Internet! One way or another, at least with the Internet, we can get the facts rather than rely on either party's spin.

What was that just about?

Hey, Jackie! I watched the debate on C-Span, because I learned during the convention coverage that the networks have this desire to cut away from the speakers at every opportunity. If you want a split-screen the entire night, try CSPAN.

Uhh, Jackie?

Does Cheney really react? MSM has been watching him for 4 years, this was The Breck Girl's big debut.

John Stewart is fair and balanced???? Since when???

Edwards was smooth and pretty, but all he did was repeat Kerry's talking points, yell "Halliburton!" every five minutes (by the way, guys, Halliburton sends out a lot of paychecks every two weeks out here in flyover country where you're scraping for votes. Might not be a winner out here.), and use smarmy trial lawyer tricks. I've tried cases for 20 years and jurors (who are voters) spot smarmy lawyer tricks right off. Cheney comes off like he knows what he thinks is right and is going to explain it and then do it, and if you don't like him, too bad.

That sells.

Edwards was great for people already voting for Kerry. Cheney wasn't Darth Vader like they make him out to be, so he wins.

No change in the polls, but then there wasn't any after Bush-Kerry either, except in the Newsweek poll (increasing your Dems surveyed by 10+% will do that for you.)

Cheney won this, big time. Handed little Johnny's ass to him without breaking a sweat. It was the NFL against the Pop Warner League. If the electorate actually based their votes on the Veep candidates it would be over.
As it is, all this did was stop the bleeding from Dubya's poor performance, I shall be interested to see how he'll do without spending the day of the next debate doing a gut-wrenching, emotionally draining tour of the hurricane aftermath.

Jackie,

It's your own fault that you didn't change the channel if you didn't like the one you were watching. I hardly think "the administration" has that kind of pull.

I would just like to remind everyone that Edwards kept talking about the cost of health care. Well, the cost of health care is going up substantially because of ambulance chasers like him that put hospitals and doctors out of business because of the increased liablitiy insurance. I have a couple of relatives who are doctors, and their insurance premiums increase no less than 15% a year. Anyone owning a business of any kind should be scared of the idea of a trial lawyer in the number 2 job in the country.
Another point Edwards repeated is that he will repeal the tax cuts given to those individuals who earn over $200,000 a year. Let me tell you something, there are many small business owners who earn that income from their business. I wouldnt consider them rich. Every time you raise taxes on anyone, whether rich or poor, it leaves them less money to invest in products, business expansion, etc. Frankly I would like to see a candidate propse a low flat income tax and throw away all the deductible nonsense.

Tomorrows Dem talking point destroyed:

Debunking the AP Claim that "VP's Claim About Meeting Edwards Debunked"
http://blogspirator.blogspot.com/2004/10/debunking-ap-claim-that-vps-claim.html

Bang! AP Fisked.

Not that it really matters, but since people are mentioning Bentsen, I think he left himself wide open for a devastating response; "Sir, JFK was no JFK".

Bernie, I remember wishing Quayle's retort had been, "Thank you."

Edwards = squirt gun
Cheney = Howitzer

Even Chris Mathews saw that.

Get a clue.