If you're looking for the comments everyone contributed yesterday, then click here.

If the HTML code doesn't work in the new comments, then go to the top post on the site today, or cut'n'paste this URL -- http://rateyourmusic.com/yaccs/commentso?blog_id=90000002080&blog_entry_id=11188952

I told you, Stephen, three weeks ago, was it? Extermination is the only solution for an infestation of rats.

I agree that extermination is the solution. However, is it possible from a democracy?

If it is not, then I think that it will be the end to democracy. Islamic law will rule.

Worst part are the Pollyannas who keep telling me, "You can't do anything about terrorism, so relax."

Flight 93, people.

And I don't WANT to relax.

Of course, none of those messages have come from any large city, so I just decided to be charitable and figure they meant well but were clueless. Fewer ulcers that way.

I doubt that a Western-style democracy like Israel would be able to go the extermination route--at least I *hope* not. Stephen is right...it's time for wholesale expulsion of Palestinians from Israel followed by locking the borders down tight.

Well, you did better than me. I really couldn't write on this one. The shock and senselessness just left me drained. I hope your screed provided you with some catharsis and release from a fucked up world.
Fight the good fight, man!

Seder at my fiance's house last night.
There's an Israeli friend of the family staying for the week.
She's from Netanya.
We were, more or less, numb.

My fiance's father is a cantor, so, being clergy, he reminded us that we are commanded, even at times of hideous, nightmarish suffering, to "celebrate" the seder.
We tried.
But in the back of my head was this...scream.
This morning, it's even louder.

I want them gone. I want them out of my homeland. Let the high-and-mighty Arab states absorb them. They should be happy to receive such willing, fanatic converts to the Wahhabi cause.

Tonight an Israeli couple who teach at the local Schechter school are coming over as well, in addition to various other synagogue members. I do not know how I'm going to make it through tonight. I just do not know.

Passover Massacre.

Worse, possibly, is that so many people don't know or don't care. Too caught up in the daily mundane. But when I stop them, and tell them, exactly what happened.... The pause. The "my dear God".

I hope we grind them into the sand dunes.

In regards to Sekimori's question above, "I agree that extermination is the solution. However, is it possible from a democracy? ", I'll quote Glenn Reynolds:

"... I remember Walter Russell Mead writing a piece last fall noting that the only opponent to kill American women and children in significant numbers was the American Indian, and that the response was near-extermination (since many of those were my ancestors being exterminated, I'm not necessarily approving this, but that's neither here nor there at the moment). He predicted that this would be the American response to Islamic terror if it weren't contained early. I think he's right. ..." (from his 03/05/2002 postings)

He was writing specifically about the US, but I think this applies, as well, to the democracy in Israel which has proven over the last century to be very adept at warfare. There's a tipping point coming, or perhaps just yesterday it came, at which point the mass of the Israeli populace will say "No More". When that happens I suspect that, yes, the Israelis will find it in themselves to vanquish their foes utterly.

They have no alternative.

Democracies wage savage warfare, made more savage by their superior technology and the indomitable morale of free citizens. If it becomes clear that the only alternatives for a democracy are a) let your kids and their kids be killed by a society of suicidal murderers or b) obliterate that society, choice "b" will be embraced by a substantial majority of the democracy's population.

Once that decision is reached, the conclusion is foregone: the democracy will utterly destroy their foe.

I sure as hell hope the Israelis do.

sekimori already said it best.

The Palestinians may once have been members of the human race. Their leadership may continue to claim membership. However, actions speak louder than words. They have "burned" their membership cards and should be treated accordingly.
They have proven, far beyond ANY (let alone reasonable) doubt that there is no solution other than military.
The sooner decisive action is taken the fewer the innocent casualities.
Arab armies have proven themselves effective against unarmed civilians, they can fight other Arab armies to a draw but if Israel pulls no punches it could all be over in less time than the Six Day War.
KSP

I remember a discussion with an Israeli on a mailing list. He talked about how desperately they had wanted peace to work, how upset they were at the bias against them in American media. I talked about how America had to act in its own interest.

It's clear that the latest violence has driven out all doubt on the American side. Let the Arabs take in their Palestinian brothers. Push every last one of them out of the country. They do not deserve the benefits of civilization. I have no sympathy for their plight any more.

FWIW, I absolutely agree with your initial post, and the with overwhelming majority of sentiments expressed subsequently.

I think that what too many in the democracies have failed to do is to recognize alternative viewpoints. By that, I mean that, living in a democracy with a civil discourse based on the exchange of ideas, we have forgotten that there ARE people out there, societies out there, that believe that the best solution is to kill, to maim, ultimately to exterminate. A mere fifty years, and we have forgotten that there IS evil.

At the same time, though, I am a little disturbed by some of the sentiments expressed, particularly those that argue that the Palestinians are subhuman. Their actions are EVIL, UNJUSTIFIABLE. There is no interest, on my part, in "understanding" or exploring "root causes." As I think Mayor Giuliani noted, "I can feel compassion for someone, and still justify the death penalty for them."

But it is important to recognize that the actions are undertaken by people---not animals, not caricatures. The Nazis were people, the Communists were people. It doesn't require a specific uniform, a particular time-period, to be able to perpetrate great evil. It just requires ideology, and a willingness to be susceptible to it.

Sorry for the rambling.

For a long time the Israelis scared me. They were sitting on top of a powder keg and they were just crazy enough to light it. The Palestinians had their beefs and some of them were even legitimate even if their end goals were unacceptable and their technique for trying to get there were disgusting and criminal. There had to be some sort of compromise, some sort of way the two sides could learn to live together in relative peace. There were fits and starts, seeming progress that made it seem like peace was attainable - just over the horizon, if only everyone could keep their cool.

Over the last year it has become more and more clear that it was all lies, tricks, and treachery. Arafat stood up and renounced terrorism, renounced violence, but it was all a lie. The terrorism and violence continued. Clinton, in his desperation for a "legacy", tried to force a compromise down the Israelis' throats that was nearly suicidal for them and would have giving Arafat nearly everything he claimed to want. He balked, turned it down flat. Arafat didn't want compromise, he didn't want peace. He would say all the right things, all the nice words, to the Western press, and then go home and tell his own people how they were going to drive the Israelis into the sea. Which was the "real" Arafat, the peacemaker or the genocidal maniac, became abundantly clear by his actions - his words mean nothing.

Then came September 11th and the Palestinians dancing in the street with joy as 3,000 of our fellow citizens were murdered. Oh, we didn't really mean it, says Arafat. Like hell you didn't. Suddenly Americans are paying attention, time to bring out the pretty words again. Bush wanted the two sides to sit down. The Israelis demanded a week - one fucking week! - of peace. One week without their citizens getting their guts splattered all over concrete because some nutjob is in a hurry to see Allah. Is that so much to ask? Apparently it is because Arafat couldn't or wouldn't deliver. Another bomb goes off, more people killed, and Saddam and Arafat start writing checks to the survivors of the nutjob who blew themselves up. How many does that make? Can anyone even keep count anymore?

This has to stop. There is no compromise with people whose only end goal is your death and destruction. The only thing you can do is kill them before they kill you. Whatever the Palestinian's beef, it's irrelevant now. There is no moral high ground here, only the pit to hell the Palestinians are busy digging for themselves. Time to fill it in with extreme prejudice.

We should not only tell the Israelis to go ahead an light the powder keg if they feel they have to, we should encourage them to do it and get it over with. We should hand them the match. Here, here's a few hellfire missiles, go turn Arafat and his cronies rocket shish kabobs and spread their carbonized atoms from here to hell and back. Hamas? I think we've got a few extra thermobarics around here somewhere, want 'em? Enough is enough, and there's been more than enough. Untie that arm behind your back, Israel, and get this over with. It's long since time to put this game of bloody water torture to an end once and for all.

The rest of the Arab world wants to go to war with you over this? Fine, we'll be there. We're going to have to fight most of 'em any damn way. House of Saud? It was real, it was nice, but it wasn't real nice - buh-bye. Saddam? Put your finger near the trigger of a WMD and your country becomes a radioactive parking lot. Iran? Your Mullahs have a choice between exile on the French Riviera or death, we don't care which.

Start on the West Bank and work our way out. If they want war, give it to them but don't let them get away with a little bomb here, an airplane into a building there, and then we'll wait until things calm down a little before deciding to start it all again bigger and worse than before. It has to end, we can't let it go on.

This has just gone too far and we have to do something. They play these games because they're afraid of all out war, they know they'll lose and lose badly. We can't let these murderers continue to get away with it.

They have sown, it's time for some reaping.

Sorry to rant and rave, but it's hard not to get worked up about it. Especially when you see these idiots on TV blathering about the "cycle of violence" and other such moral equivalence crap. When someone tries to kill you and you blow their head off before they can manage it that's not a "cycle of violence", that's justice.

Myria

I agree pretty much 100% with the sentiments expressed here, and have for some time. While I have some sympathy for the Palestinians, most of their problems they have brought on themselves.

I think it is time for the U.S. to get out of the "peace procress" and let Israel defend itself - we are doing more harm than good as it is. If Israel needs to drive the Palestinians into the sea in order to secure itself, then so be it.

I agree pretty much 100% with the sentiments expressed here, and have for some time. While I have some sympathy for the Palestinians, most of their problems they have brought on themselves.

I think it is time for the U.S. to get out of the "peace procress" and let Israel defend itself - we are doing more harm than good as it is. If Israel needs to drive the Palestinians into the sea in order to secure itself, then so be it.

The Palestinians should be very worried. At one time, many people I know truly believed that Arafat and the Palestinians wanted to live peacefully with the Israelis. I don't know many people who believe this today.

I'm located in Boston, MA. I've considered myself a liberal in many areas, and most of my friends and relatives would be classified as liberal also. (Being a liberal in Boston is kind of natural .. I think it's the air or water!!)

I don't see much support for the 'Palestinian Peace Process' among people who have traditionally believed this was possible.

What I *do* see support (growing support) for is for Israel to 'take the gloves off', with US support, and deal with the Palestinians militarily, in a large way.

If I were a Palestinian, I'd worry about the 'US Street's' growing support for strong military action (like wiping them out).

Enough is enough. Let's deal with the growing Islamofacist threat now and let's make the Palestinians one of the targets.

Regarding the posibility of an "extermination" campaign, read "Culture and Carnage" by Victor Davis Hansen (sp). You may already have, but it's worth thinking about the history of democratic cultures when threatened. Ruthless efficiency is probably a good description. The examples Hansen uses are Thebes against Sparta in about 400BCE, Sherman's March to the Sea in the US Civil War, and the fire-bombing of Tokyo in WWII. Don't mess with a democracy -- not a paper tiger, but a "leave me the hell alone" tiger. Puts up with a modicum of poking, but eventually gets a good dinner from the poker, if he doesn't go away.

Mao put it best when he said that "The people are the water that the guerillia fish swins in". Time to drain the water out of the swamp, and use the resulting land to plant crops.

These are terrible times and I'm convinced there's going to be a major war soon- in some ways more awful than the last. Possibly even longer-lasting: it is a terrifying prospect.

A de-nazification programme is ultimately needed, and this can only happen after the Islamic world has suffered total military defeat and occupation by the West. That's all of us.

I have read so many posts recently calling for 'extermination'.

We are not them.

We are not Nazis.

We are not going to commit genocide.

I assume the calls for "extermination" are hyperbole our unconsidered outrage. I'm not even sure the israelis can or should simply shove out the entire West Bank population.

But I no longer feel qualified to have an opinion on how Israel should defend itself. They'll take action and the world will condemn them for it. On the other hand, the world will condemn them anyway.

The only thing Israel could do to win back world sympathy is to commit suicide. The liberal churches would have memorial services every year, the Europeans would shed tears over the demise of this state that they'd suddenly decide was a gallant outpost of democracy after all. The media would be filled with stories of the heartache and desolation of the survivors as they struggled to make new lives after yet another scattering.

Won't happen. No second holocaust this time. After all, Jews being the subject of mass oppribruim is not unprecedented.

I don't know if I fully agree with the letter of Mr. Green's post, but with the spirit, I'm behind him all the way.

By the way, I'd support Israel even if Vietnamese lived there.

Sorry. I actuall can spell "opprobrium." And I meant "or unconsidered outrage." Apologies for not proofreading.

Great of you to say 'even if the Vietnamese lived there'.

Perhaps we are the lowest form of life?

You can spell opprobrium; can you spell 'racist dirtbag'? Sounds like your version of nirvana includes a big dose of genocide.

A Vietnamese-American.

You have got some really sick people here.

Is this a gathering place for Nazis?

I'm in the USAF, by the way.

Goodbye.

Isn't it interesting how the violence level in the mideast is correlated with Sharon's regime? Even though my kneejerk should be anti-Palestinian, my objective assessment is clearly that they've had the short end of the stick for way too long. Time for the Israelis to play or move out of Palestine, perhaps to Africa. BTW, I DO NOT condone civilian deaths, but I do blame Sharon's regime for provoking them.

"provoking" them??[!!]

Right On Dude!

Mr. Green (and everyone else):

Have you seen these?

Better yet, can you able to prove these articles wrong (or deceitful)?

http://jim.blogspot.com/?/2002_04_01_jim_archive.html#75052799

http://stommel.tamu.edu/%7Ebaum/ethel/2002_03_24_ethel-archive.html#11247894

there is no rebuttal of these articles - they are right on